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	<title>Comments on: Out with the viaduct &#8230; in with I-605?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.djc.com/blogs/SeattleScape/2009/10/01/why-enviros-should-back-the-tunnel/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.djc.com/blogs/SeattleScape/2009/10/01/why-enviros-should-back-the-tunnel/</link>
	<description>This blog will focus on how Seattle shapes itself — its design, its planning and its aspirations.</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:57:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: SeattleScape &#187; Blog Archive &#187; &#8216;Build it — or else&#8217;</title>
		<link>http://www.djc.com/blogs/SeattleScape/2009/10/01/why-enviros-should-back-the-tunnel/#comment-727</link>
		<dc:creator>SeattleScape &#187; Blog Archive &#187; &#8216;Build it — or else&#8217;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 18:02:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.djc.com/blogs/SeattleScape/?p=2073#comment-727</guid>
		<description>[...] now Patrick Doherty, right here on SeattleScape, has offered yet another arm-waving warning that borders on what could [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] now Patrick Doherty, right here on SeattleScape, has offered yet another arm-waving warning that borders on what could [...]</p>
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		<title>By: JoshMahar</title>
		<link>http://www.djc.com/blogs/SeattleScape/2009/10/01/why-enviros-should-back-the-tunnel/#comment-724</link>
		<dc:creator>JoshMahar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 02:07:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.djc.com/blogs/SeattleScape/?p=2073#comment-724</guid>
		<description>Who would lead to the conclusion that our Westernmost N/S Freeway being removed would lead to the addition of an Easternmost N/S Freeway route? Do you have any studies to back this up? Have there been any recent movements towards making I-605 a reality specifically due to the tunnel controversy?

"the potential, long-term environmental impacts of the streets-and-transit option are far greater than the theoretical, short-term reduction of vehicle trips that that option is purported to create."

This is just utterly and completely false. Its not the environmental impacts of surface/transit, its the environmental impacts of creating a N/S freeway to the East and it is a logical fallacy (without evidence) to somehow correlate these two things. Your argument is a poor attempt at scare tactics.

Furthermore your argument that a tunnel is the "long-term" solution is also entirely false. If anything has been proven over the last 100 years of the American experiment it is that freeways and SOV travel are the absolute worst solution for growing urban populations. Transit, especially rail, is far more efficient in moving people and goods.

If anything, based on the way voters have been moving in recent years I would say that it is much more likely to spark a new push for Eastside Rail than a new Eastside freeway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who would lead to the conclusion that our Westernmost N/S Freeway being removed would lead to the addition of an Easternmost N/S Freeway route? Do you have any studies to back this up? Have there been any recent movements towards making I-605 a reality specifically due to the tunnel controversy?</p>
<p>&#8220;the potential, long-term environmental impacts of the streets-and-transit option are far greater than the theoretical, short-term reduction of vehicle trips that that option is purported to create.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is just utterly and completely false. Its not the environmental impacts of surface/transit, its the environmental impacts of creating a N/S freeway to the East and it is a logical fallacy (without evidence) to somehow correlate these two things. Your argument is a poor attempt at scare tactics.</p>
<p>Furthermore your argument that a tunnel is the &#8220;long-term&#8221; solution is also entirely false. If anything has been proven over the last 100 years of the American experiment it is that freeways and SOV travel are the absolute worst solution for growing urban populations. Transit, especially rail, is far more efficient in moving people and goods.</p>
<p>If anything, based on the way voters have been moving in recent years I would say that it is much more likely to spark a new push for Eastside Rail than a new Eastside freeway.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt the Engineer</title>
		<link>http://www.djc.com/blogs/SeattleScape/2009/10/01/why-enviros-should-back-the-tunnel/#comment-720</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt the Engineer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 04:50:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.djc.com/blogs/SeattleScape/?p=2073#comment-720</guid>
		<description>"even if some magical combination of street improvements and synchronized traffic signals could accommodate the existing Highway 99 flow through downtown (which I do not believe is possible), what about future growth?  Do the streets-and-transit promoters think the region will stop growing?"

Not only do the s&#38;t promoters think car traffic will stop growing, they think car traffic will dramatically shrink.  Actually, so does our Governor, who signed a bill to aim at &lt;a href="http://hugeasscity.com/2008/03/07/co2-regulation-envy/" rel="nofollow"&gt;50% reduction in vehicle miles traveled in Washington State by 2050&lt;/a&gt;.

Even if vehicle use somehow goes up by 20% (I guess this assumes no peak oil, WA's VMT reduction fails, and Priuses go on sale for $5,000), the WSDOT study reported that this option does just fine.  

But I'm just copying from a much better description of the issues.  For the source, take a look at Cary Moon's wonderful piece on &lt;a href="http://hugeasscity.com/2009/09/30/special-guest-post-tunnel-digest/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Hugeasscity&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;even if some magical combination of street improvements and synchronized traffic signals could accommodate the existing Highway 99 flow through downtown (which I do not believe is possible), what about future growth?  Do the streets-and-transit promoters think the region will stop growing?&#8221;</p>
<p>Not only do the s&amp;t promoters think car traffic will stop growing, they think car traffic will dramatically shrink.  Actually, so does our Governor, who signed a bill to aim at <a href="http://hugeasscity.com/2008/03/07/co2-regulation-envy/" rel="nofollow">50% reduction in vehicle miles traveled in Washington State by 2050</a>.</p>
<p>Even if vehicle use somehow goes up by 20% (I guess this assumes no peak oil, WA&#8217;s VMT reduction fails, and Priuses go on sale for $5,000), the WSDOT study reported that this option does just fine.  </p>
<p>But I&#8217;m just copying from a much better description of the issues.  For the source, take a look at Cary Moon&#8217;s wonderful piece on <a href="http://hugeasscity.com/2009/09/30/special-guest-post-tunnel-digest/" rel="nofollow">Hugeasscity</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Daniel Franklin</title>
		<link>http://www.djc.com/blogs/SeattleScape/2009/10/01/why-enviros-should-back-the-tunnel/#comment-718</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Daniel Franklin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 20:00:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.djc.com/blogs/SeattleScape/?p=2073#comment-718</guid>
		<description>Wow, you're wading into this "debate""? It's seeming more and more like a shouting match about which studies to believe or not. Out of curiousity, do you have any specific reasons you do not believe the WSDOT traffic models for the surface model? 

Less than a year ago a surface option was preferred due to cost:
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/8DE75ACA-24B0-4871-B689-7C112CF032E5/0/AWV_SAC_Nov13_Model_Analysis_Handout_lowres.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, you&#8217;re wading into this &#8220;debate&#8221;"? It&#8217;s seeming more and more like a shouting match about which studies to believe or not. Out of curiousity, do you have any specific reasons you do not believe the WSDOT traffic models for the surface model? </p>
<p>Less than a year ago a surface option was preferred due to cost:<br />
<a href="http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/8DE75ACA-24B0-4871-B689-7C112CF032E5/0/AWV_SAC_Nov13_Model_Analysis_Handout_lowres.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/8DE75ACA-24B0-4871-B689-7C112CF032E5/0/AWV_SAC_Nov13_Model_Analysis_Handout_lowres.pdf</a></p>
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